QUESTIONS

Roger- This is kind of out of the blue, but we are having some issues in our church, and I was wondering what your take on the situation might be. I have always valued your insight.

A teacher at our church, L________, started a Sunday night bible study, Fresh Encounter, by Henry and Richard Blackaby. It was a very convicting study about spiritual revival within yourself and how it leads to revival among God's people. They are also the authors of Experiencing God, which we just completed in December. The pastor to our church was also doing the study, but two weeks into it, he showed up at the bible study and cancelled it abruptly, saying that he fundamentally disagreed with a statement in the study book. He had only made it to day 2, and went no further after he read this question: What are some ways God has used to draw you back to Himself when you departed from Him? Loss of Job/Income, Relationship Turmoil, Natural disaster, Health problems, Emotional pain, Other. He said that he did not believe God would cause us problems because we sin, and he would not condone a bible study that suggested it. He also continued by saying that he would not look at the rest of it, the same way he would not watch an R rated movie--because it doesn't matter how much good is in there, if there is a little bit of filth, it's not worth it. He said he could find nowhere in the New Testament that showed God disciplining people with the above things for sinning. Which, I agree, we are saved by grace, but I believe that although our sins are forgiven, we still have to deal with the consequences of our sin. And when we depart from relationship with God, I do believe He allows things to happen in our lives so that we will be drawn back to Him and rely on Him for everything, not ourselves. What would you say about this issue?

And there is more yet. He has also said that he forbids anyone in the church to continue with this bible study, and if we do we will be in direct disobedience to his authority as pastor of this church. As you probably know, I have issues with submissiveness anyway, so I cannot rely on my own thoughts on this. I have prayed and tried to seek God's will for me in this, but I believe my own mind is still skewing what I hear. What is your take on what is going on? Speaking from the point of view of a pastor, is this biblical, or is he abusing his power? Could this be an attack by Satan to attempt to split up our bible study or church?

The real loser in all this is L_____________. This is one of several times that he has yanked the rug out from under her teaching Sunday School and other classes. She is a very strong personality, very authoritative, can be somewhat legalistic, but has a very strong love for God and desire to grow in relationship with Him. I don't agree with everything she says, but she is a good teacher. I have trouble with the R rated movie metaphor, because I think it is our responsibility to research everything we are taught, and make sure it lines up with scripture. No human will ever be infallible, or perfect all the time. Like all people, Laurie has baggage, and can be unlovable at times, but she has also had an abusive past that makes her particularly prickly about authority. Which is her own battle, I admit. (i'm too softhearted at the best of times) But, she is planning on leaving the church, and it breaks my heart....I think she needs us just as much as we need her. I don't know what to do, and I know I cannot fix it, but I am just looking for some clarity in the madness. I don't want a church split.

Pastor has also been going through some rough times. A member of our congregation just died of lung cancer in December, she was only 45. Pastor became very close to the family during her year long struggle, and so I think he is also still grieving for that. This is also his first church that he has pastored, and he is not very good with conflict resolution, but he has pastored here for 9 years.

I feel like I am dumping a lot on you, but if you have any advice, or counsel for Cody and I during this, it would be greatly appreciated. I want to do the right thing, the "God" thing, not what I FEEL like doing!

Thanks for listening....

First; It sounds like what you are dealing with is a Pastor Lead Church and not a
Plurality of Elders in a church making a decisions. I have experienced the lethargy
of a plurality of elders, but one of the advantages that it is biblical is it offers a
balanceof different personalities. Plurality of Elders also puts several minds
together through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to solve complex problems. I
say this because in my twenty years in the ministry I have not had the type of sole
authority that this Pastor claims. Here is the verses I think point to a plurality
of elders.

Then he said to Moses, “Come up to the LORD, you and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel Exodus 24:1

When he flees to one of these cities, he is to stand in the entrance of the city gate and state his case before the elders of that city. Then they are to admit him into their city and give him a place to live with them. Joshua 20:4

When all the elders of Israel had come to King David at Hebron, he made a compact with them at Hebron before the LORD, and they anointed David king over Israel, as the LORD had promised through Samuel. I Chronicles 11:3

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust. Acts 14:23

From Miletus, Paul sent to Ephesus for the elders of the church Acts 20:17

Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you. 1 Timothy 4:14

The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you. Titus 1:4-6


I am certain your Pastor Loves the Lord and His Church, he has a difficult task for sure.
But if your church does not have a healthy plurality of elders or leadership whatever the
name you use, you will not be able to make positive change without major conflict to the
point of splitting the church. Not sure it’s worth it-but you need to pray about it.

Second; I am not an expert on the modern Pentecostal movement to address this
completely. But I know there is a faction that believe Jesus death on the cross brought
complete redemptionnow, not when Christ Returns. Another words God is good and
Satan is bad. So all healing andprosperity comes from Jesus and all disease comes from
Satan. So if you are experiencing a lack of health, it is because you have a lack of faith in
what Jesus did on the cross. I am terriblyover simplifying this complex issue but it’s
how I perceive it. The problem is it is not Biblical- let me give you some scriptures that
support our redemption now-but complete creation restoration at the Second Coming.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. Romans 8:18-21

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever. Revelation 22:1-5

Now about Blackaby’s study and not taking the course-I can not give a blank endorsement.
Your Pastors statement “. He said he could find nowhere in the New Testament that showed God disciplining people with the above things for sinning.” I disagree with. Here is some Scriptures that should be considered. . .

Acts 5:1-11

You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord? 11 Now the hand of the Lord is against you. You are going to be blind, and for a time you will be unable to see the light of the sun.”
Immediately mist and darkness came over him, and he groped about, seeking someone to lead him by the hand. 12 When the proconsul saw what had happened, he believed, for he was amazed at the teaching about the Lord. Acts 13:10-12

Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner
will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. 29 For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. 32 When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be condemned with the world. 1 Corinthians 11:27-32

Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live! 10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:9-11

And I could Go on –but I think you can see there is some serious weaknesses to this

view.Let’s close with a few side issues.

First the biblical example is that confrontation is to be done in Private not public.
He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they
invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately. Acts 18:26

Second: Our attitude is to be the same as that of Jesus who submitted himself even
to the ungodly.

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need. 29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you. Ephesians 4:25-32

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ Ephesians 5:21

So for you and your friend you must submit to your Pastor and yet be able to speak boldly thetruth without anger or malice but in a kind and compassionate manner. If you consider
this an essential doctrine and you feel God gives you a green light you may have to leave.
But before that takes place-It is God’s will you make the effort-to love one another-Forgive
one another and accept one another as God’s Children.
I will pray for you in this difficult matter.


Be God's

Roger Miller